The cats love the online orders.

CLY is one team that suffers from the midweek orders. That's not to sat that it should be changed for our sake, but it does create at least one NMR a year for us.

How we do the press releases are up to you all. It would be a logistical nightmare to try to grade the entire forum, but grading one folder over a brief span would not be a problem. I personally like the blog because it is there "in your face" when you hit the front page. Not much difference between that and a forum folder, otherwise.

I do think that at some point the involvement levels get a little extreme. You've got the lineups, of course, but also the forum, the blog, and sometimes a fantasy football opportunity to earn cash for your team. And then there's the "pre-season" comments on the forum. It is difficult for some to be "completely" immersed in SESL with all of these outlets, and if you're not completely immersed, you don't mazimize your resources for your team. Some of you may not have noticed, but CLY isn't as active in some of those parts of the game. I think that the same could be said for HUN manager Kevin Martin. With CLY press duties, and home commitments (and the same can be said for HUN with a second young one in the home) it is tough to take advantage of those opportunities. If teams start to suffer, or become "non-competitive," SESL might lose some of those guys for good. And THAT'S not good for the league.

Along those same lines, there seems to be a tremendous amount of resources in this game, but that's a line I've expressed in previous seasons. :-)

Thanks for the opportunity to speak. SESL is a great league, Mark!

I've snipped most of what Phil said but lets see if I agree with it. I'll type as I think.

In SESL you play between 37 and 51 games and in MSWL you play between 42 and 46 - the average is 44 for both (it probably isn't actually 44 because more teams play less games but close enough). So gate money is pretty much the same (same calculations for gate money) except that in MSWL 1st division teams only play 22 games at +25k compared to 30 in SESL.

I reckon participation bonus is probably near enough the same because MSWL only has 1 game per week (except during the latter cup) but the maximum is 25k (not sure how frequently though) and SESL is 50k every month which is sometimes 12 games.

So ignoring the pre-season stuff and pre/post-match comments stuff there's not a great deal of difference in cash going into the league.

One big difference is that both have the same number of auctions but there's twice as many teams in SESL which effectively means that MSWL teams pay out twice as much money overall.

Another is that CP is cheaper to buy in MSWL so that most teams will buy 50 CP for 2000k but in SESL they will buy 35 CP for 1500k. And this will lead to more coaching slots taking even more money out of MSWL.

So I don't think there's more resources in SESL.

Now do we need the extra cash going into the league? Well this is just based on this season at Deveronvale.

When I took over the team the 35 CP had already been bought and I had a total of 25k. Deveronvale will have 2660k after the next match.

I picked up 300k for pre-season ramblings, 2 TP for the Budweiser Premier League, 2 TP for arranging the SESL Cup draw, 25k for being there and I think 30k from post-match comments. I effectively got 600k for the 4 TP. So if you take that 955k off I would have 1705k, actually maybe more because I knew I could afford to do some intensive coaching just after mid-season.

But 1705k is still a profit of 180k after I buy 35 CP next season.

So I guess I'm saying that we don't need the 300k or the little extras and that the Press awards are enough. I don't do the pre-season stuff for the money, nor play the Fantasy League for the TP but it is a great incentive.

And when you think how good Rangers have been the past few seasons and James doesn't participate anywhere near as much as me.

And I certainly think that T11 and T17 will start to fall over the next couple of seasons because the auction players aren't so strong as they were before SESL went online. So I don't think there's too many resources in SESL taking Bosmans, CP, Auctions and Press into account.

I'm not sure that Mr. Turner's analysis accounts for the added opportunities in SESL to recieve cash awards for different levels of participation...such as the pre-season division commentary, the pre- and post-match commentary, etc. The discrepancy with the SESL Cup that I was referring to concerns the variance in the number of games...the better teams play more games and earn more money, which gives those teams more money to spend on resources. Finally, no discussion on resources is complete without a reference to CP and TP, etc. These intangibles are available through the auction process, which continues to push up the SL values of players. If not all teams have an equal ability to compete for those resources in an auction, or elsewhere, than they will not have an equal opportunity to compete on the field.

P.S. Steve, you edited out all the good stuff!

That's the 955k I mention (300k for pre-season, 30k for post-match, 25k for attending live draw, and the rest made up from selling TP I got from other duties).

If you take that off then I'd still end up with 180k more at the start of next season than I did at the start of this. So a 4th from worst team can still make enough money to get promoted (luckily) without all the other extra stuff.

I edited out some more stuff - yes CP and TP is available through auctions (less than previous seasons) but it only works out at about half of each per team. I think there's still more CP bought in MSWL (per team) than in SESL overall. T11's are lower in MSWL but I wonder if that's partly due to the high SL auction players that were avaialable in SESL in previous seasons.

Better teams always get more money in every league I play in.

Anyhow - we don't want all the leagues to be the same as each other do we? Unless they're all like SESL that is which for some reason I do well in.

Good - CEL come back to win title.

Bad - some way too serious arguments between managers.

Indifferent - ach, I dunno....

Wow, if you just quickly read through Steve's post and accept wide generalities as truth, it does make sense....



The assumption that "each team" gets .5 CP/TP is false, because the shares aren't distributed to each team...only those successful in the auction. And (BIG logical leap here) the teams with resources are more likely to win those additional resources.

I'm glad that Steve had a successful season (well, except for the part where Clyde missed out on promotion because of his success), but it seems ludicrous to imply that 300k for pre-season comments and 30k for post-match comments, 25k for attending LIVE! draw, a fantasy futbol competition (?!), etc. isn't beneficial to a team in comparison to a team without those additional deposits. Yes, everyone has equal opportunity to get those extras. But the point is that there are some managers unable to hit all those points...and their teams will inevitably suffer somewhat. Translation...you'll eventually lose those managers. Perhaps that's not a big deal to you, Steve, because it doesn't affect you adversely. Perhaps the majority might say, "if you don't have time, don't play the game." But I would argue that losing managers like myself, Kevin Martin, or Kevin Hull due to time constraints/competitive issues would not be great for SESL. My point: there's a lot of extra resource opportunities that not everyone can take advantage of.

Steve is correct though that, SESL took some measures to hopefully curb the high SL trend via the auction amendments, but that was because it was widely acknowleged that it was becoming an issue. The issue needed to be dealt with before it became a widespread problem.

"Better teams always get more money" is absolutely correct, but that's not the issue. The question is "how much" money better teams should get. If the discrepancy is too large, lower teams can't bridge the gap to become "better" teams. Then, the game is no fun for anyone. Is anyone else here old enough to remember Michael Fant's early domination of SESL? If we don't learn from history...well, I guess we can just repeat history and learn the lesson again....

Not necessarily arguing for all leagues to be the same...just thought I'd make a suggestion that I thought could make SESL stronger. Pardon the interruption, but I kinda thought that was the point of this thread...

Yes I said it was beneficial and I also said this.

As far as I could tell from your earlier post, Phil, this was what you were mostly concerned with - the fact that you have to be on SESL all the time to do well. And I agreed with you.

Just to re-word what I stated earlier. If you ignored the 300k and the extra rewards, apart from the Press, then Deveronvale would be 180k better off (it's now more like 280k after the latest match) at the start of next season compared to the start of this season.

Yes the money helped, without the first 150k I couldn't have bought my first auction player but then again if I knew it wasn't going to be available I wouldn't have started the season with just 25k.

If you knew me better then you'd know this is a big deal.

Well, if you came to more of Al's barbarques, I would know you better.

TBH, if there are managers who are willing to go the extra mile and take part in all the extra curricular activities, then they should be rewarded.

I understand that some good or longer term managers may not be able to put in as much time, but is it fair that people that do want to put more time and effort into the game, to allow them to build up their teams, should be denied the chance to do so?

Well, it goes back to the balancing act, which I really don't care to go into again. Ironically, I don't get cash reimbursement for this forum participation, yet someone drops in on a LIVE! draw or plays a fantasy futbol game...cha-ching! I've said my piece. I don't think there will be many tears if I or others disappear because we can't keep the pace. For some, I guess it's about the rewards, not the relationships.

Hits the spot that Les.

The consistancy of match results appearing on website within an hour of deadline leaves traditional play-by-email leagues flapping far behind.

One suggestion: could deadline by 3pm UK rather than 11 am or 12 noon?
Would give more time for 'on the day' lineup submissions.

I am open to suggestions on how to tweak SESL for next season.

No major changes, but suggestions welcome on how season flowed.

My plan was SESL Cup groups to be seen as a bit of a breather for managers mid season, but what happened was alot of managers became distracted and started getting out of habit in visiting web site and a few NMR's creeped in. This lead to several taking a break (sometimes at my request) and we have about 8 caretaker boss'es in sesl currently which gives them a chance to get used to the game.

Almost all the managers taking abreak are long term managers who were at poor performing teams and had lost the enthusiasm a bit. With this in mind, the dreaded sesl Chairman is going to come back out next season and I think moving managers around different teams sometimes seems to freshen things up.
I will not force anyone to move teams though.

I agree with Mark about moving managers around. It certainly does freshen things up.
I think I would know about that one.
I think that one thing that should be address are managers that intenionally slag other managers in a mean spirited way. I think these managers know who they are. If they have to resort to this type of crap, give them the boot.

I like the changes that have been made this season, although I'm somewhat indifferent about the changes in the SESL Cup. Nothing we can't live with, though. The online lineup entry is great, and probably saves NMR's in some cases Thanksgiving weekend, for example!). Personally, I'm in favor of managers sticking with one team. I know I'm probably in the vast minority there, especially since the commissioner has already announced his intentions, but as a matter of principle I think that team jumping breaks continuity in the league and sometimes rewards managers with promotion that hasn't necessarily been earned.

Well this manager won't be moving or losing enthusiasm. I've been offered a job for life at Deveronvale. Well at least until we retain a League Championship.

The new format with the SESL Cup has it's good points and bad points.

For instance Rangers and Hibernian. Both qualified as expected but Rangers concentrated on the league (James's choice) and are out. Hibernian had no chance in the league and so can T11 every cup game. The old system of the knockout stages after the cup would have seen Rangers trying harder and Hibs having to throttle back a bit.

In the group stages everyone could play strong. This could have meant more smaller teams failing (and I expected Deveronvale to be one of those) because in previous seasons a lot of the bigger teams would ease off and just do enough to qualify (Inverness in their championship winning season used the group stages to rest players and finished 3rd in their group). But I suppose that is just the opposite of the current situation so there isn't that much of a difference.

I hadn't realised that managers had become distracted with the group stages, but I suppose when you know you won't make it through then you get lazy.

The big plus for me is that, assuming the season was going to finish on December 16th anyway, Deveronvale are still playing. The group stages took three Saturdays. If league games had been played on those days then the that would have finished on November 19th and we'd be in the knockout stages of teh SESL Cup now. I would have had to use the cup to rest players because I expected to finish bottom anyway so would have concentrated on the league. We wouldn't have made it through to the knockout stage.

My season would have finished on November 19th with the possible exception of the play-offs 4 weeks later. And that would have been the same for 15 other teams. And when your season has finished it's difficult to stay involved.

As it stands three teams are still fighting for the Division One title and eight teams have relegation worries. In Division Two there are only two teams that know their fate (yes, I know, Phil - Clyde are relagated as well, but it isn't mathematical yet). In Division Three all the way down to 12th can still be promoted, however unlikely.

Of the rest, two are in the cup anyway and only two teams have no CP or TP left, but everyone still has to be involved if only to avoid blow-outs.

Tweaks? I noticed that auction SLs were all up on last season. Maybe lower these again.

Also reduce the CP and TP offered. I'm not worried about the amount there is in the league (well not CP which is quite rare due to initial expense) but the amount one team can win - and only eight teams can win CP.

Go back to 35 TP at the start of the season? But many managers (this one included) would be expecting 40 and so planned for that so maybe the season after next.