I must say I found the debate on WG's very informative on the other thread.

Some managers appear to think it makes the game too easy and anybody can win playing with WG's whereas other seem to disagree.

Must say, having looked at managers roll of honour, my SESL ambition will be to get onto that. So I may play with WG's if it helps me to win, once I achieve winning something in SESL then I may worry about trying to win without it being too easy!

Thanks all for your pointers.....

Hi There,

Have you started with an expansion team? It's the 1st time I see an ICT post.

I'm Yoav, what's your name?

Back to WGs. I too have read that managers say it's easy to win the league with the use of such players, but for some reason no-one is willing to answer my question about them.

Like what makes them so good? or how can anyone stops them?

Another good question could be does a strong offense with a weak defense is really better than a strong defense with a reasonable offense?

Perhaps the wingers are best used against teams with weak defences? But less so when facing a club with real depth in the back?

Anyone up to discuss such matters??? hmm

At the end of the day all tactics and all players have counter-tactics and counter-players etc, if that makes sense????????

Like how Ball Control works well against Longball. WG's work well for OFF, but the loss of 2 MF's that you could have played decreases DEF.

It's going to take a LONG discussion to get a definite answer to anything along these lines.

Myself and Fallon had a very lengthy discussion on the best tactic possible a while back. If i remember rightly, Martin was looking into the possiblities of having 3 x SL30+ WG's and playing Early Cross whilst rotating these players. Again, if my ageing brain is working, i recall that playing Longball with 4 decent FW's was better.

Is that right?

WG's can be good, but as with everything, it all depends on what style of play you intend to use.

To finish, i'll also point out that even a low SL WG can be useful sometimes because of it's OFF production.

Kev,

Thanks for the input.

You are correct about the effectiveness of low SL wingers. I used a couple of wingers on SaSo at the earlier parts of last season one with 16 SL and the other with 16 SL. They did a good job even when I didn't use Early Cross.

Actually I am building a 'winged' team with 3 identical star wingers on my psfa squad. So if any of you would like to see the results check out Rishon City's exploits on 1-B.

However Sesl is a bit different for me. The Saints roster is more balanced for a 4-4-2 lineup. Under such conditions it would probably be a good idea to avoid the tedious task of grooming a brand new wing section.

BTW - I know that this is a Sesl forum, but the reason I am mentioning other leagues on this thread is that it concern the use of wingers, so I think it's relevant.

Wingers are touchy as was noted above, and there is no easy answer to them. To start with your question from a previous post about marking wingers:
It's probably not worth it. The point of marking is to take one player out of the game as best as possible. This is usually the other team's best shooter, as it keeps them from getting as many shots by reducing their offensive output. If you mark a winger, you would then guarantee that any remaining FWs would get all the shots, which is not the point of marking. Marking a winger would reduce the overall OFF for the other team, but also reduces your own DEF as the marking player's SL does not count for your team either. As you would not be taking away their chance of scoring a goal like when you were marking their best FW, you take away OFF and your own DEF, making the exchange pretty moot unless the winger you are marking is their ONLY good player.
As the formula for shot allocation is based on a percentage (OFF-GP/DEF)*6, then smaller numbers make for greater differences as fewer points matter more. To explain better, a ten-point difference between their offense and your defense matters more when your defense is 50 and their offense 60, than it does when your defense is 100 and their offense is 110. Thus reducing both numbers will only help if your defense is guaranteed to be higher than their offense. With that being said, marking a winger will only help if it will drastically reduce their offense while minimally hurting your defense (very unlikely in SESL). You are better off marking their best shooter to reduce the number of shots he takes so your goalie has a better chance of stopping the remaining shots. If your goalie stinks, then don't bother marking and instead keep as many defenders back as possible so as to maximize your goal protection number, which is GUARANTEED to reduce shots as that number gets completely removed from the OFF before that is matched up to your DEF. Make sense? Probably not, but if you write a follow-up question I can hopefully clarify that in detail.

As for the offense end of Wingers:
Would you rather have a winger or another forward or midfielder? It depends on what you're looking for and what scheme you like to play. Wingers do generate more offense than forwards in every scheme but longball as they get 1.25 times their SL plus another 0.05 for each FW/WG on the field. However, it seems that only in longball and early cross do people actually play 4 FW/WGs to allow wingers to get their maximum offensive power. With the longball rules modified to allow 1.5 times the FW SL (two seasons ago) when playing longball, suddenly the WGs are not as necessary to play longball either...

So when is it worth it to play a winger? At lower SLs, wingers are worth more than low-SL forwards because they do get that little SL boost as well as not taking shots from the better FWs. These are both really good things. With a high-SL winger, it can also be worth it to play them as they get a considerably lower shot allocation chance than forwards, generating offense while keeping the shots with the guys up front. At the same time, this exposes your team to marking. If you trot out one good forward, one decent forward, and one good winger every week, then any good manager will play an extra defender and mark your best forward. This effectively removes your best scoring chance. Two good forwards leaves a manager less likely to mark as there is no noticable benefit unless you can afford to mark BOTH players, in which case your team is so much better than the other team that you shouldn't need to mess with marking in order to win.

So to sum up: if you are planning on making the player a high-SL guy (unless you are committed to playing 4 upfront and already have 2 good forwards) then you are probably better off with a forward. If you can only afford to get the player up to the high teens or maybe low 20's in SL, then a winger can generate more offense while leaving your best FW to take shots. Please note that I am not 'down on' wingers. I actually love them. HUN just stinks right now and I'm rebuilding it slowly. We've focused on the must-have positions (GK, FW, DF) and haven't had a chance to add on wingers yet. For examples of teams where Wingers add a ton to the team and allow the team to take their offense to the next level, check out my other teams in other leagues: KM in FLATNZ (defending champs) and KIN in MSWL (2nd Div champs) because we follow the above rules of making wingers great supporting casts for stud forwards, and have committed to playing the 4-upfront rule in almost every match.

Thanks Kevin,

Your posts are very interesting to read and made me think about my WG section in a new view.

I've got a team which began a season with a trio of 1\15 WGs and a single 4\30 FW. So in that case it would be a good idea to get them up to 25 SL and 40 SL on account of the FW getting lots of shots. But next season I shouldn't spend too much on the WGs (just enough to keep them from the age loss) and start to work on my younger FWs instead.

KM are looking good this season. I play on Flatnz too, but on Beta (Holylanders). If you'll ask Phil he'll tell you all about me.

Dear Yoav,
I suspect noone answered your question on wingers as I already had a few posts earlier. here it is again:

'Typically 2 or 3 of the top four teams will use wingers. Why are they so good? In my opinion its the OFF they generate. Players generally lose total points (GP, DEF, and OFF combination) the further forward they play (ie SW 2.0, DF 1.75, MF 1.25, and FW 1.0). Essentially the more OFF a position generates, the less total points they gain. Wingers were added later in the game and is the exception to this generalisation. A winger generates 1.25 OFF, which is further enhanced depending on the number of other wingers or forwards played (up to 1.40, or 1.9 if playing early ball). Most will play a 4-2-2-2 formation if using wingers, and so will typically generate 40% more OFF than a Striker; so two wingers almost make up another player! They are less likely to be caught offside, and are only marginally less effective shooters then Forwards. When playing Earlyball they can generate 1.90 OFF, each wingers is almost as good as two Forwards!

In the limited resource environment of the SESL wing play is easy to maintain wingplay; you don't need to maintain OTF or have a decent Midfield. The SESL is competitive, and wingers are not the miracle answer to everything, but their benefits are amazing, whilst not easy to win with wingers, its certainly easier.'

In effect the benefits of wingers are:
1. Exception to the dimishing points (GP+DEF+OFF) generalisation.
2. Are not considered forwards in the 2-1 rule for area balance.
3. generate typically 40% more OFF then FWs, upto 90% more!
4. OFF is generally more useful in the shots formula then DEF.

Disadvantages:
1. Tactical limitation - to get the most out you need to play a 4-2-2-2 formation.

Managers talk of advantages and disadvantages, 'swings and roundabouts', when it comes to tactics and formations. the assumption is, as a game everything's balanced, but you only have to look at the formula to see there are notable exceptions, and wingers are one of these. A winger is far better then a MF or FW at the same SL any day of the week.

OK, now to the area I didn't elabourate on and thats marking. Generally marking isn't worth while. Why? Because you lose the use of one player and your opponent loses upto 3/4 or 75% of of the player being marked. Under such and exchange most managers would shy away from using marking.

But wait, it gets worse, a DF typically generates 1.75 points (GP+DEF+OFF) vs 1.0 for a FW. So basically the 'exchange rate' for marking a FW is 1.75 (one DF) to 0.75 (3/4 of a FW) in terms of players contribution in the line-up. Essentially, despite the fact you may reduce the mumber of shots a star FW gets, you will typically conceed more shots (as the GP/DEF you lose are not compensated by the reduction in OFF the FW produces)! furthermore, you will lose the OFF from the DF too! Personally, I don't think its worth marking to reduce a star striker, unless they are a lone striker or your opponent plays very defensive.

So when is it worth marking? I do think marking is neglected in the SESL; I personally use marking quite frequently, and find its best used:
1. If you have DF that are 25% lower SL than the WG or FW then the fact you can only reduce a FW or WG's OFF by 75% is irrelevant. However, the 'exchange rate' is still generally unfavourable. Nuppie DF may then be worth using as markers.
2. Against Wingers, especially against Earlyball. Marking a WG playing Earlyball typically means each DF SL you lose 1.75 points, but eliminate 1.9 OFF. Against WG and FW's playing longball it could also worth it depending on the team you are up against.
3. Counter-Attack and Ballcontrol, DFs only produce 1.5 points, and Finesse 1.25. Under these tactics DFs produce less points, and so Marking is more attractice. However, I find Counter-Attack best used when you know you are playing against Press or Ballcontrol, otherwise its a tactic I wouldn't use, but in doing so you lose the tactical benefit of an OFF bonus from DF as your DFs are marking and so produce no OFF. Hence Finesse and Ballcontrol lend them selves better for marking.

If you are going to mark extensively, you really need to have a quality sweeper and also a strong midfield for cover. Anyway, thats my take on Wingers and Marking. I hope it proves useful to some managers.

Sorry Vinny missed that, can you repeat it again please?

[COLOR=blue][SIZE=7][FONT=Impact]
I have found that WG's are only good for Early crosses, but you have to have good FW's also..
\

Vincent,

That is a very good post you wrote.

You have made me realise that there are a lot of aspects to the game behind the 'get a lot of high SL players and blast away' approach.

I hope the new managers are reading this thread, it's a real good one.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to open more debates on other stuff later on.

Everybody, keep those ideas flowing, they are great.

WG's rock!

Wingers are great.

Only an idiot would ignore them as part of their squad.

WG sure help you get goals in this game.

Get wingers

Play wingers.

Simple.